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Chess World Online Chess Forum - Move 19 & 20 analysis (20...Rd8?)

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Play | Latest posts | IndexForum Name: Play the expert - WGM Julia Galianina-Ryjanova
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  Play ... Latest Forum Posts > Chess Game Forums - Rest of World matches > Play the expert - WGM Julia Galianina-Ryjanova
  analysis move 20 ...Nd6 -- mate if 20...Rd8 ? --

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Bro. Rick



 Topics started


United States
Sat Aug 30 2003 10:38AM | edited: 11:06:59 | MsgID: 189823


Hi gmueller,

Probably on the 20...Rd8 21. f4 (d6!) line

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 d5 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.Qb3 dxc4 6.Qxc4 0-0 7.e4 Bg4 8.Be3 Nfd7 9.Rd1 Nc6 10.Qb3 Nb6 11.d5 Ne5 12.Be2 Nxf3+ 13.gxf3 Bh5 14.Rg1 Qd7 15.Rg3 c6 16.a4 Qc7 17.a5 Nc8 18.Qb4 Be5 19.Bh6 c5 20.Qa3 Rd8 21.f4 Bxe2 22.Nxe2 Bh8
23.e5 instead of 23...e6
Black has a little more counterplay with 23...c4
if 24.Kf1 b5
if 24b3 b5

White is still better, of course.

--------------------------------------
By the way, Yulia may not take the rook after 20...Nd6

After 21. f4 Bg7 (not 21...Bxe2? 22. fxe5! Nc4 23. d6!)
22. Bxg7 Bxe2
23.Kxe2 Kxg7

Certainly an even position, but we must be careful.

FOR INSTANCE:

WGM Yulia Ryjanova 2 (2416) - Rest Of World [D99]
Internet Board #221713, 2003
[Bro. Rick]

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 d5 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.Qb3 dxc4 6.Qxc4 0-0 7.e4 Bg4 8.Be3 Nfd7 9.Rd1 Nc6 10.Qb3 Nb6 11.d5 Ne5 12.Be2 Nxf3+ 13.gxf3 Bh5 14.Rg1 Qd7 15.Rg3 c6 16.a4 Qc7 17.a5 Nc8 18.Qb4 Be5 19.Bh6 c5 20.Qa3 Nd6 21.f4 Bg7 [21...Bxe2? 22.fxe5 Nc4 23.d6 +/=] 22.Bxg7 Bxe2 23.Kxe2 Kxg7 24.Kf1 Rfd8 25.Kg1 Nc4 26.Qa4 Nxa5 27.e5 b6 28.Qe4 Nb3 29.d6 exd6 30.Nb5 Qd7 31.Nxd6 Nd4 32.f5 Kh8 33.Rxd4 cxd4 34.Qh4 Rg8 35.Qxd4 +/=





gmueller

 Topics started


Germany
Fri Aug 29 2003 10:45PM | edited: 10:56:51 | MsgID: 189557


Yulia - gmueller [D99]

We have a lot top player with voting for 19...Rd8 ?
Help me -- Can you improve ?
I don't find a good way for black with this move.

[[1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 d5 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.Qb3 dxc4 6.Qxc4 0-0 7.e4 Bg4 8.Be3 Nfd7 9.Rd1 Nc6 10.Qb3 Nb6 11.d5 Ne5 12.Be2 Nxf3+ 13.gxf3 Bh5 14.Rg1 Qd7 15.Rg3 c6 16.a4 Qc7 17.a5 Nc8 18.Qb4 Be5 19.Bh6 c5 20.Qa3 Rd8 21.f4 Bxe2 22.Nxe2 Bh8 23.e5 e6 24.Nc3 exd5 25.Nxd5 Qc6 26.Qf3 Qb5 27.Qb3 Qxa5+ 28.Kf1 b5 29.f5 c4 30.Qf3 Bxe5 31.fxg6 fxg6 32.Nf6+ Kh8 33.Rd7 Rxd7 34.Nxd7 Qd8 35.Nxe5 Qe7 36.Qxa8 Qe8 37.Rf3 Qd8 38.Nf7+ Kg8 39.Nxd8 c3 40.Rf8#]]


[[1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 d5 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.Qb3 dxc4 6.Qxc4 0-0 7.e4 Bg4 8.Be3 Nfd7 9.Rd1 Nc6 10.Qb3 Nb6 11.d5 Ne5 12.Be2 Nxf3+ 13.gxf3 Bh5 14.Rg1 Qd7 15.Rg3 c6 16.a4 Qc7 17.a5 Nc8 18.Qb4 Be5 19.Bh6 c5 20.Qa3 Rd8 21.f4 Bxe2 22.Nxe2 Bh8 23.e5 e6 24.Nc3 f6 25.Nb5 Qd7 26.Qd3 c4 27.Rxg6+ hxg6 28.Qxg6+ Bg7 29.Ke2 c3 30.Rg1 c2 31.Nd4 Qf7 32.Qxg7+ Qxg7 33.Bxg7 Rxd5 34.Bxf6+ Kf7 35.Nxc2 Rd7 36.h4 Kf8 37.h5 a6 38.h6 Na7 39.Nd4 Re8 40.f5 exf5 41.Nxf5 Nc6 42.Ng7 Rc8 43.e6 Nd4+ 44.Bxd4 Rxd4 45.Nf5 Re4+ 46.Kf3 Rxe6 47.h7 Kf7 48.Rg7+ Kf6 49.Rg8 Rxg8 50.hxg8=Q Kxf5 51.Qf7+ Ke5 52.Kg4 Kd6 53.Qxb7 Ke5 54.Kg5 Rd6 55.f4+ Ke6 56.Qb6 Rxb6 57.axb6 Kd6 58.b7 Kc7 59.b8=Q+ Kxb8]]+-(#14) TBS 1-0

MfG
Günter


Playable game scores in this posting
Playable game #1


Playable game #2






Bro. Rick



 Topics started


United States
Fri Aug 29 2003 3:35AM | MsgID: 188860


Hi Steinar, also I don't think we would like toplay any of these lines with Black:

WGM Yulia Ryjanova 2 (2416) - Rest Of World [D99]
Internet Board #221713, 2003
[Bro. Rick]

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 d5 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.Qb3 dxc4 6.Qxc4 0-0 7.e4 Bg4 8.Be3 Nfd7 9.Rd1 Nc6 10.Qb3 Nb6 11.d5 Ne5 12.Be2 Nxf3+ 13.gxf3 Bh5 14.Rg1 Qd7 15.Rg3 c6 16.a4 Qc7 17.a5 Nc8 18.Qb4 Be5 19.Bh6 c5 20.Qa3 Rd8

21.d6 Nxd6 22.Nd5 Qd7 23.Nf4 Bxf4 24.Bxf4 Qc6 [24...f6 25.Qxc5 e5 26.Be3 Kg7 27.Kf1 Qe7 28.Rd2 h6 29.Kg2 g5 30.Qb4 Nf5 31.Bc5 Nh4+ 32.Kf1 Qc7 33.Rc2 Qd7 34.f4 Bxe2+]

25.Rd5 Nxe4
26.fxe4 [26.Rxh5 Nxg3 27.Rxc5 Nxe2 28.Rxc6 Nxf4 29.Rc7=]

26...Bxe2 27.Kxe2 Rxd5
28.exd5 Qxd5 [28...Qb5+ 29.Ke1! (29.Kf3 Qc4 30.Qe3 Qxd5+ 31.Qe4 e6 32.Qxd5 exd5 33.Ke2 b6 34.Rd3 d4) 29...c4 30.Re3 Qxd5 31.Qxe7 Rd8 32.f3 Qd1+ (32...Qxa5+ 33.Kf2 Rd2+ 34.Kg3 Qd8 35.Bh6+-) 33.Kf2 Rd2+ 34.Kg3 Qg1+ 35.Kh3 Qg2+ 36.Kh4 Qf2+ 37.Bg3 Rd4+ 38.Re4 Rxe4+ 39.Qxe4 Qc5 40.Qe5+-]

29.Qd3 Qe6+ [29...e6 30.Qxd5 exd5 31.Rb3 Re8+ (31...b6 32.axb6 axb6 33.Rxb6+-) 32.Kf3 Re7 33.Rb5+-;
29...Qc6 30.Kf1 c4 31.Qd4 Re8 32.Rg5 b6 (32...Qh1+ 33.Ke2 Qb1 34.Rc5 b6 35.Rxc4 e5 (35...Qf5 36.Be5 f6 37.Bc7 bxa5 38.Qe4 Qd7 39.Qc6 Qxc6 40.Rxc6 Rc8 41.b3 e5 42.Ke3+-) 36.Qd7 Qxb2+ 37.Kf1+-; 33.Qd5 Qxd5 34.Rxd5 e6 35.Rb5 bxa5 36.Rxa5 f6 37.Rxa7 g5 38.Bc1+-]

30.Kf1 b6 31.Re3 Qg4 32.Bc7 e6 33.Qe2 Qxe2+ 34.Kxe2 bxa5 35.Bd6 c4 36.Rc3 Rd8 37.Be5 Rd5 38.f4 Kf8 39.Rxc4 Ke7 40.Rc6+-

I think these lines are too hard for Black to draw.

Regards, Bro. Rick





Steinar



 Topics started


Norway
Thu Aug 28 2003 1:16PM | MsgID: 188312


Right. I agree, now
When first I read through the forum, people were mentioning d6 a lot as the reason why ...Rd8 shouldn't be played, so I simlpy didn't look any further. I agree however that after f4 things are looking ugly indeed.

Regards,
Steinar



gmueller

 Topics started


Germany
Thu Aug 28 2003 8:24AM | edited: 8:28:21 | MsgID: 188176


Steinar wrote:
Hello!
It's been a while since I was a member of this team... so much to do, so little time. Today I thought I'd have a look at how you guys were doing though.
Now, I've probably not analyzed this very much compared to some people in here running heavy machinery it seems, but I was surprised at how quickly you discarded ...Rd8. It's good compensation for the exchange to be rid of that offending bishop (what a joy!), maybe - but I have something to submit for your consideration:
Did anyone evaluate 20... Rd8 21. d6! Nxd6 22. Nd5 Qd7 23. Nf4 Bxf4 24. Bxf4 Qc6!?
Threatening ...Nxe4. Take a look at it; black ends up with three pawns for a piece, and it's looking drawish to me. I have not analyzed the continuation thoroughly though, so maybe I'm missing something? I don't have sufficient experience with endgame to say with any degree of certainty what will happen, either - maybe some of you do.
Note: What the computers will say is here to be taken lightly - Computer analysis is good for tactical positions, and not so good for things like this. Maybe not such a good thing since the team seems to be relying heavily on computer analysis?
Anyway, my five cents
Good luck to you for the rest of the game.
Regards,
Steinar.


Hi Steinar and team
Here my work out at WT forum

gmueller
Posted On 08/27/03 02:45AM

Hi team
Can you test this:

Yulia - gmueller [D99]
19...c5 20.Qa3 Rd8 21.d6

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 d5 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.Qb3 dxc4 6.Qxc4 0-0 7.e4 Bg4 8.Be3 Nfd7 9.Rd1 Nc6 10.Qb3 Nb6 11.d5 Ne5 12.Be2 Nxf3+ 13.gxf3 Bh5 14.Rg1 Qd7 15.Rg3 c6 16.a4 Qc7 17.a5 Nc8 18.Qb4 Be5 19.Bh6 c5 20.Qa3 Rd8 21.d6 Nxd6 22.Nd5 Qd7 23.Nf4 Bxf4 24.Bxf4 f6 25.Qxc5 e5 26.Be3 Kg7 27.Kf1 Qe7 28.Rd2 h6 29.Kg2 g5 30.Qb4 Nf5 31.Bc5 Nh4+ 32.Kf1 Qc7 33.Rc2 Qd7

Rd8 f4 Bxe2 Nxe2 Bh8 e5 Rb8 Rc3 b6 Kf1 Bg7 Bxg7 Kxg7 axb6 axb6 +41
He just wants to roll us up the old fahioned way with f4. Rd8 seems to have a lot of problems.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 d5 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.Qb3 dxc4 6.Qxc4 0-0 7.e4 Bg4 8.Be3 Nfd7 9.Rd1 Nc6 10.Qb3 Nb6 11.d5 Ne5 12.Be2 Nxf3+ 13.gxf3 Bh5 14.Rg1 Qd7 15.Rg3 c6 16.a4 Qc7 17.a5 Nc8 18.Qb4 Be5 19.Bh6 c5 20.Qa3 Nd6 21.Bxf8 Rxf8 22.Rg2
[ 22.Kf1 ]
22.. f5 23.Rd2
[ 22.Kf1 ]
22... c4 24.Rc2 fxe4 25.fxe4 Bf3 26.Bxf3 Rxf3

[27.Qb4 Rf4 28.Re2 Bxc3+ 29.bxc3 Nxe4 30.Re3 Nd6 31.a6 bxa6 32.Re5 Kf7 33.Re2 Rf5 34.Rg4 Rxd5 35.Qb1 Rb5 36.Qc2 Nf5 37.Qe4 Qxh2 38.Kd1 Kg7 39.Kc2 h5 40.Rg3 h4 41.Rg4 Qd6 42.Qxc4 Qa3 43.Rg1 Rb2+ 44.Kd3 Qd6+ 45.Ke4 Rb5 46.Kf3 Rc5 47.Qe6 Rxc3+ 48.Kg2 Qd3 49.Qe5+ Kh7 50.Rh1 Qf3+ 51.Kh2 Qh3+ 52.Kg1 Qg4+ 53.Kf1 Rf3 54.Rg1 Ng3+ 55.Rxg3 hxg3 56.Qxe7+ Kh6 57.Qd8 Qh3+ 58.Ke1 Qh1+ 59.Kd2 Qa1 60.Qh4+ Kg7 61.Re7+ Kf8 62.Re8+ Kxe8 63.Qe4+ Kd7 64.Qd5+ Ke7 65.Qxf3 Qd4+ 66.Ke2 Qxf2+ 67.Qxf2 gxf2 68.Kxf2

RE: Yulia: 20.Qa3 20...Nd6 21.Bxf8 Rxf8 22.Rg2 f5

Yulia - gmueller [D99]
19...c5 20.Qc3 Nd6

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 d5 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.Qb3 dxc4 6.Qxc4 0-0 7.e4 Bg4 8.Be3 Nfd7 9.Rd1 Nc6 10.Qb3 Nb6 11.d5 Ne5 12.Be2 Nxf3+ 13.gxf3 Bh5 14.Rg1 Qd7 15.Rg3 c6 16.a4 Qc7 17.a5 Nc8 18.Qb4 Be5 19.Bh6 c5 20.Qa3 Nd6 21.Bxf8 Rxf8 22.Rg2 f5 23.Kf1 Bxc3 24.Qxc3 fxe4 25.fxe4 Bxe2+ 26.Kxe2 Nxe4 27.Qe3 Nd6 28.Kf1 Nf5 29.Qe6+

MfG
Günter






Steinar



 Topics started


Norway
Thu Aug 28 2003 1:23AM | MsgID: 188052


Hello!

It's been a while since I was a member of this team... so much to do, so little time. Today I thought I'd have a look at how you guys were doing though.

Now, I've probably not analyzed this very much compared to some people in here running heavy machinery it seems, but I was surprised at how quickly you discarded ...Rd8. It's good compensation for the exchange to be rid of that offending bishop (what a joy!), maybe - but I have something to submit for your consideration:

Did anyone evaluate 20... Rd8 21. d6! Nxd6 22. Nd5 Qd7 23. Nf4 Bxf4 24. Bxf4 Qc6!?

Threatening ...Nxe4. Take a look at it; black ends up with three pawns for a piece, and it's looking drawish to me. I have not analyzed the continuation thoroughly though, so maybe I'm missing something? I don't have sufficient experience with endgame to say with any degree of certainty what will happen, either - maybe some of you do.

Note: What the computers will say is here to be taken lightly - Computer analysis is good for tactical positions, and not so good for things like this. Maybe not such a good thing since the team seems to be relying heavily on computer analysis?

Anyway, my five cents
Good luck to you for the rest of the game.


Regards,
Steinar.



Bro. Rick



 Topics started


United States
Wed Aug 27 2003 11:26PM | MsgID: 187969


Hi Team, I repeat

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 d5 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.Qb3 dxc4 6.Qxc4 0-0 7.e4 Bg4 8.Be3 Nfd7 9.Rd1 Nc6 10.Qb3 Nb6 11.d5 Ne5 12.Be2 Nxf3+ 13.gxf3 Bh5 14.Rg1 Qd7 15.Rg3 c6 16.a4 Qc7 17.a5 Nc8 18.Qb4 Be5 19.Bh6 c5 20.Qa3 Nd6 21.Bxf8 Rxf8 22.Rg2 f5 23.Rd2 c4
24.Rc2 fxe4 25.fxe4 Bf3 26.Bxf3 Rxf3 27.a6 Nxe4 28.Nb5 Rxa3 29.Nxc7 Ra1+ 30.Ke2 c3 31.bxc3 Bxc7 32.axb7 Rb1 This was posted but doesn't White win with

33.Rg4 Nxc3+ 34.Rxc3 Bxh2 35.f4+- Rxb7 36.Kf3± not sure if this wins for White, but we certainly don't want to play this, there also doesn't seem to be an improvement on our 32. move, but the 27...Rd3 variation looks better than 27...Nxe4.

What do you think?
Regards, Bro. Rick




gmueller

 Topics started


Germany
Wed Aug 27 2003 11:16AM | edited: 12:06:37 | MsgID: 187383


Yulia - RoW [D99]


[[1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 d5 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.Qb3 dxc4 6.Qxc4 0-0 7.e4 Bg4 8.Be3 Nfd7 9.Rd1 Nc6 10.Qb3 Nb6 11.d5 Ne5 12.Be2 Nxf3+ 13.gxf3 Bh5 14.Rg1 Qd7 15.Rg3 c6 16.a4 Qc7 17.a5 Nc8 18.Qb4 Be5 19.Bh6 c5 20.Qa3 Nd6 21.Bxf8 Rxf8 22.Rg2 f5 23.Rd2 c4 24.Rc2 fxe4 25.fxe4 Bf3 26.Bxf3 Rxf3 ]]

Can you improve or find you a win for Yulia ? 27.best answer what?
( 27.a6= )

27.Qb4 Rf4 28.Re2 Bxc3+ 29.bxc3 Nxe4 30.Re3 Nd6 31.a6 bxa6 32.Re5 Kf7 33.Re2 Rf5 34.Rg4 Rxd5 35.Qb1 Rb5 36.Qc2 Nf5 37.Qe4 Qxh2 38.Kd1 Kg7 39.Kc2 h5 40.Rg3 h4 41.Rg4 Qd6 42.Qxc4 Qa3 43.Rg1 Rb2+ 44.Kd3 Qd6+ 45.Ke4 Rb5 46.Kf3 Rc5 47.Qe6 Rxc3+ 48.Kg2 Qd3 49.Qe5+ Kh7 50.Rh1 Qf3+ 51.Kh2 Qh3+ 52.Kg1 Qg4+ 53.Kf1 Rf3 54.Rg1 Ng3+ 55.Rxg3 hxg3 56.Qxe7+ Kh6 57.Qd8 Qh3+ 58.Ke1 Qh1+ 59.Kd2 Qa1 60.Qh4+ Kg7 61.Re7+ Kf8 62.Re8+ Kxe8 63.Qe4+ Kd7 64.Qd5+ Ke7 65.Qxf3 Qd4+ 66.Ke2 Qxf2+ 67.Qxf2 gxf2 68.Kxf2 0-1

Yulia - gmueller [D99]
19...c5 20.Qc3 Nd6

[[1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 d5 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.Qb3 dxc4 6.Qxc4 0-0 7.e4 Bg4 8.Be3 Nfd7 9.Rd1 Nc6 10.Qb3 Nb6 11.d5 Ne5 12.Be2 Nxf3+ 13.gxf3 Bh5 14.Rg1 Qd7 15.Rg3 c6 16.a4 Qc7 17.a5 Nc8 18.Qb4 Be5 19.Bh6 c5 20.Qa3 Nd6 21.Bxf8 Rxf8 22.Rg2 f5 23.Kf1 Bxc3 24.Qxc3 fxe4 25.fxe4 Bxe2+ 26.Kxe2 Nxe4 27.Qe3 Nd6 28.Kf1 Nf5 29.Qe6+ Rf7 ]]½-½
MfG
Günter

Playable game scores in this posting
Playable game #1


Playable game #2






cositas_buenas



 Topics started


Germany
Wed Aug 27 2003 7:18AM | MsgID: 187247


I'm not convinced yet. Nevertheless I'll go with 20...Nd6 and put the blame on you in case we'll lose. Let's sweat it out, folks!



Bro. Rick



 Topics started


United States
Wed Aug 27 2003 4:46AM | MsgID: 187213


Hi Kurt & team,

Yeah, Kurt, I posted 21.d6!! a number of days ago, and some people are still voting for 20.Rfd8. I guess they don't look at the posts; then again 21.d6 (neat that the pawn can be taken 5 ways!) doesn't show a plus for White until around 15 ply! Some of the slower computers, if they use computers, take a day or more to reach 15 ply.

concerning your 20...Nd6 analysis:

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 d5 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.Qb3 dxc4 6.Qxc4 0-0 7.e4 Bg4 8.Be3 Nfd7 9.Rd1 Nc6 10.Qb3 Nb6 11.d5 Ne5 12.Be2 Nxf3+ 13.gxf3 Bh5
14.Rg1 Qd7 15.Rg3 c6 16.a4 Qc7 17.a5 Nc8 18.Qb4 Be5 19.Bh6 c5 20.Qa3 Nd6

[ 21.f4 Bxe2 22.Kxe2 Bg7 23.Bxg7 Kxg7]

21.Bxf8 Rxf8
22.Rg2 f5
23.Rd2 c4

[ 24.Qb4 Qd7 25.Rc2 fxe4 26.fxe4 Qh3]

24.Rc2 fxe4
25.fxe4 Bf3
26.Bxf3 Rxf3

[ 27.Ke2 Rd3 28.Qb4 Qd7 29.Kf1 Qh3 30.Rc1 Qf3 31.Ne2 Qxe4]

27.a6 Nxe4

[ 27...Rd3 28.Qa4 bxa6 29.Nd1 Qc8 30.Ne3 Qh3 31.Re2 Bd4 32.Qc6 Qf3 33.Qd7 c3 34.bxc3 Bxc3+ 35.Kf1 Rxe3 36.Rxg6+ hxg6 37.Rxe3 Qf6]

28.Nb5 Rxa3
29.Nxc7 Ra1+
30.Ke2 c3

[ 31.bxc3 Bxc7 32.axb7 Rb1]

31.Ne6 Rxa6 32.Kd3 Rxe6 33.Kxe4 cxb2 34.Rxb2 Bxb2+ 35.dxe6 a5 36.f4 Bc3 37.Rc2 Bb4 38.Rc8+ Kg7 39.Rb8 Kf6 40.Rxb7 Kxe6 ½-½

--------------------------------------------
Well done, but it looks like White can win the variation
[ 31.bxc3 Bxc7 32.axb7 Rb1] I think White can win with
33.Rg4 Nxc3+ 34.Rxc3 Bxh2 35.f4+- Rxb7 36.Kf3± not sure if this wins for White, but we certainly don't want to play this, there also doesn't seem to be an improvement on our 32. move.
But the 27...Rd3 line looks better than 27...Nxe4.

What do you think?
Regards, Bro. Rick





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