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Game 10645719 - comments welcome





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  Game 10645719 - comments welcome




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Taotaomonas

Chess rating: 1660





 Topics started


Australia
Give chess goodie
Wed Jul 12 2017 10:41PM | edited: 1:04:53 | MsgID: 19775744


No offence taken

My time and actual interest in chess is in truth way down my list on daily life. But I do admire and appreciate you guys who treat it as I do other interests.

A friend of mine once asked why I could not do the Rubik Cube.
I replied that I had never attempted too.
But you play chess he said...seemingly putting the two together... You only have to read the leaflet he said and this thing is easy!

Many would argue that there is little difference between matching up the coloured sides on a plastic cube to capturing the little wooden man on the checkers board. But with respect to any Rubik Cube fans on site. As was mentioned earlier it is solvable to most just by methodology.

Chess also has method, logic, boundaries and rules. But there is no leaflet that ever fully solves the puzzle. I have no problem with chess engines or even engine users. I even get why if you are a serious chess player engine analysis is likely essential.

I could show or teach anyone who wanted to how to stand up on a board and even catch a wave or three.
Could I teach them to surf!?... Nah...
There are many books, many idea's, many forms...
I think what Tam said about personality is true. For me its a 64sq ocean and its fun just trying to visualize the most 'elegant' and exciting breaks before I fall off.








LeHorla

Chess rating: 2316



 Topics started


United States
Give chess goodie
Chess goodies: 1
Wed Jul 12 2017 6:27PM | MsgID: 19775736


>Chosen move clearly reveals true grit and determination!

Yes! Finally, something we can all agree on! Black found a beautiful move. However, the original poster was asking for any winning lines missed. Sure, we could all pat him on the back and say, "forget about this game, you played fine, now go win the next one". Or we pull up our sleeves and look for moves. Taotaomonas found the queen exchange. Great! I spent a few minutes in earlier positions and couldn't find anything. However, I felt that the position was ripe for a killer move. That's why I entered that specific position in a search engine. I'm guessing that the player spent a fair amount of time examining the game and he might (or not) be interested in the engine combo. Take it or leave it.

>Why is this preferable to the two pawn advantage from
>his own move and suggested Later Q Swap?

At the end of the combo line that I showed, we reach a very interesting position where the white king can't move (without losing the rook) and the rook can't move because it's pinned. The c pawn, accompanied by those terrifying centralized bishops, cannot be stopped. For example, Nb5 is followed by c2, and queening shortly.

>what is so elegant about the engine combo?

After 39...c4 I find it interesting that the pawn can be taken in 3 different ways, but all relinquish the defense of d5 and lead to quick mate. The engine combo still uses the Benrubs's ingenious Qa3 idea, which is the most beautiful of all. Finally, I love the stranglehold that Black has on white after Bxd5. I find it elegant, but that's my personal opinion.

The problem with 39...Qa3 in the game is that it leads to an equal position (this is based on my own personal analysis but I'm willing to defend it with concrete variations). I feel that white erred by moving his King up and towards the center of the board. As strange as it looks, I think moving the king in front of his own pawns, for example with 42. Kh3, would have been better. In any case, Qa3 leads to an unclear position at best, unlike the engine combo.

Tomdraug, thaks for your input. I very much agree with you that engines will give you a lot of moves that are completely irrelevant in practice. For example, they'll find what you call the "lackluster move" that will give you an extra 0.1 pawn advantage. But this is useless to us because we wouldn't know how to take advantage of it since we don't think like computers. Engines are also completely useless is certain types of positions, like endings with bishops of opposite color. For example, the engine may not see that the extra 2 pawns will be easily and hopelessly blocked, and gives a +2 advantage anyway. Engines will also find some amazingly wild moves that would require so much analysis that no human could fathom. I remember once GM Nakamura and GM Anand were discussing their recently finished game and the commentator pointed out a move found by the engine that would have given one player the advantage. Both players burst out laughing at the ridiculously complex and irrelevant move. However, sometimes, the computer will find an elegant variation that is within reach.

>My brain is absolved from thinking, when the prophetic voice of an engine
>speaks. I prefer to find my own mistakes by myself.

Definitely, you don't want to shut your brain and let the computer tell you everything. That would be pointless. I always analyze my moves first. However, if I've spent 30 minutes on a move in a highly tactical position and didn't find anything, it's unlikely I'll find anything more. Sometimes the engine will give me something interesting or a move that's outside the box.

I first learned to play chess at a time where I could only play chess once a week at my local chess club. Chess programs were awful or non-existent. Correspondence chess was by mail, and a letter from Bulgaria might take a month to reach my home. I loved chess so much that this was not enough for me. So I used to spend a lot more time studying and analyzing the game then actually playing. I would have loved to have all those options that are available today. Anyway, that's why I still love analyzing the game using all tools available.

Taotaomonas, I apologize if my first message sounded like a criticism of your analysis. I meant no such thing.

Finally, I apologize if I'm sounding a little defensive. I've occasionally heard some folks suggest that if you have an engine and know how to use it, you're probably using it *during* the games too (no one is suggesting that in this thread, of course!). I've always been offended by that.

Phew! that was long. Cheers, everyone!








TamCoblyn

Chess rating: 1990





 Topics started


Wales
Give chess goodie
Wed Jul 12 2017 11:19AM | edited: 11:19:56 | MsgID: 19775726


Chosen move clearly reveals true grit and determination!







Taotaomonas

Chess rating: 1660





 Topics started


Australia
Give chess goodie
Wed Jul 12 2017 9:49AM | MsgID: 19775725


Forgive my ignorance but what is so elegant about the engine combo?
Unless I have played it through incorrectly black appears to end up even material wise.
Why is this preferable to the two pawn advantage from his own move and suggested Later Q Swap?







TamCoblyn

Chess rating: 1990





 Topics started


Wales
Give chess goodie
Wed Jul 12 2017 9:41AM | edited: 9:42:53 | MsgID: 19775724


Mine is my best move theory, proclivity not to follow games in CC good fun, but always seeing each move as a puzzle that needs solving perspective rather than following the game whole meal. OTB seems to solve that sufficiently.







Tomdraug

Chess rating: 1836



 Topics started


Poland
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Wed Jul 12 2017 1:26AM | MsgID: 19775723


Great discussion!

My 2c: I found out that an engine analisys always shows better moves that I played in the game. I also found out, that engine analisys doesn't care about my plans and my ideas what to do next. In fact, moves I considered most important, steering the game in a new direction are inaccuracies at best. Engine shows some lackluster (but with less centipawn loss) move instead. A move which has completely no meaning for me, teaches me nothing and makes me lazy. My brain is absolved from thinking, when the prophetic voice of an engine speaks.

So, I think for a GM or IM engines are ok, maybe even a must. A mere mortal like me, I prefer to find my own mistakes by myself.








TamCoblyn

Chess rating: 1990





 Topics started


Wales
Give chess goodie
Mon Jul 10 2017 5:49PM | MsgID: 19775676


Conclusive Evidence.







LeHorla

Chess rating: 2316



 Topics started


United States
Give chess goodie
Chess goodies: 1
Mon Jul 10 2017 2:05PM | MsgID: 19775674


Kramnik was a pioneer in the use of chess engines to prepare for matches. And he would never consider analyzing games without an engine.








TamCoblyn

Chess rating: 1990





 Topics started


Wales
Give chess goodie
Mon Jul 10 2017 4:15AM | edited: 4:20:47 | MsgID: 19775671


Interesting humorous built on misconceptions. However in return.

I am convinced, the way one plays chess always reflects the player's personality. If something defines his character, then it will also define his way of playing. Vladimir Kramnik







LeHorla

Chess rating: 2316



 Topics started


United States
Give chess goodie
Chess goodies: 1
Sun Jul 9 2017 6:12PM | MsgID: 19775657


Yes, I understand. A bit like Greek philosophers sitting in the agora debating how many teeth are in a horse's mouth. Where's the fun in asking a farmer to open a horse's mouth and start counting!

I find chess engines have a lot to offer. As someone who usually plays very few games, I'll often spend 30 minutes+ on some moves. Once the game's over (goes without saying!), I'll often use the chess engine to see where I went wrong. It's a humbling, but very valuable learning experience.

As far as the game in this thread is concerned, I found the combination found by the engine to be very elegant, but do avert your eyes if you are allergic to engines.

I should say that I also agree with Taotaomonas that the queen exchange appeared to offer good winning chances.








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